Curse

burai · Nov 07, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

This is SO not true. There are plenty of people playing monks now. More than say, a Mesmer, but you still dont see Mesmers in demand do you?

It's just simply that Monks are too necessary and very very very effective at what they do. No other class is so in demand....which is a problem.

I agree that there are plenty of monks around say Ascalon City and in many of the lower-level areas. But as you progress to the higher levels the number of monks (from my perspective) appears to dwindle.

I am obviously basing my opinon solely on observation. Whenever I hang around in a town, I rarely see another monk. Now of course I may not see a mesmer either, and perhaps that's because I'm not looking for them - a fact that may simply confirm the OP's viewpoint.

It would be interesting to see some stats on class distribution - if they exist.

coolsti · Nov 07, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

There are a lot of good players out there, but also a lot of really miserable ones, who don't know a thing about strategy, team play and technique. It is these bad players that find such a need for monks.

I've played PVE GW for a long time now, and from my experiences:

- Far less healing is needed if the team plays intelligently and as a team. Sticking together, luring, targetting, etc. If parties played like this, then one monk would be sufficient. And that one monk would also find some time to deal some damage as well, with either a smiting or a secondary profession skill. When teams play poorly, two monks are not enough, and they are totally busy, and out of energy, trying to heal the party.

- Henchy monks are an excellant replacement for human monks, when human monks are not available. Granted, every party should have a monk, maybe two later in the game. But there is no reason to stand around a mission town crying Monk Monk Please Join Us when there are no monks who want to do so. Somebody the other day objected to the fact that I took a henchy elementalist in the party (there were no human elementalists available), saying that henchies are terrible. My answer to him was that henchies are simply mirrors of ourselves. They suck of our technique and strategy suck. They perform well if we play intelligently. And this goes for henchy monks, I have used them often and by now for each mission in the game.

- Each profession has a way of healing themselves. Playing smartly, carefully, as a team, backing away and retreating when needed will reduce the depency of a party on monks. And in fact, a lot of quests and missions can then be done without any monks at all, although it may take more time and much more care.

I am now playing my 4th character which is a monk. And I hate getting into a party in which the team members play so stupidly that I need to be healing all the time. Doh, there is such a thing as backing off. I hate being thought of as a constant source of HP that simply has to be there or the mission can't be completed. I am learning some strategies of my own: I tend not to heal players who play stupidly, or who position themselves too far away from me and the rest of the group, or who constantly yell things like "heal monk".

Oh, and another thing: I also like to smite and use my necro secondary profession, and I am sure there are a lot of other monks out there who feel the same. Whats the point? Read the above and learn how to reduce your dependency on human monk players for healing!

Loralai · Nov 07, 2005, 11:03 AM // 11:03

I wonder if solo farming plays a role in the dwindling numbers of high level monks available for regular group outtings...

Charcoal Ann · Nov 07, 2005, 12:00 PM // 12:00

possibly. also monk is not a class that most people would use as their first char. it tends to be your third or forth char. this makes it unlikely that it will get taken all the way through the story. it will likely ascend then either PvP, farm or do FoW and UW. i know that MY monk hasn't finished fire islands yet. i've been through those missions before and they are sooo time consuming.

No. monks are not needed in an extraordinarily organised group. in a guild group say you can quite easily do Thunderhead Keep with Alesia as your only healer.
however. all those groups 'LF HEALER!1!11!!!!!'? they are PUGs. They DO need a human monk. or two. I challenge you Coolsti to go and complete TK or a fire island mission in a PUG (no friends, no familiarity) without a healer or two. you have a day. once you beat the problem of getting your team to actually try it without a monk you will encounter the trouble of one player running through a gate at the wrong time. or aggroing by accident. and THAT is only if the whole group is made up of nice guys.

Whilst henchies have superhuman reflexes they have no energy management skills. no judgement. no problem solving skills. they have no flexability.

Henchies work in a patient, competent team. PUGs rarely fulfill both qualities.

coolsti · Nov 07, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Charcoal Ann,

I won't take on your challenge, I agree with you 100%. What I was trying to point out was not that monks are not needed, but that this seemingly desperate and huge dependency on human monks is unwarranted.

After my experiences I agree completely that PUGs in general lack the patience and playing skills to complete a mission without constant healing from one, maybe two monks. But I also believe that the dependency on this "HP infusion" from monks can be cut down significanty if PUGs just used their heads and learned to play correctly. As I wrote in my post, then people can play with henchy monks with success when human monks are not available. And then the human monks can also have some fun in the missions and do something else besides run around and heal. The monks can then heal when needed, but then smite or whatever their secondaries allow them to do when not needed.

I've played in good groups where I rarely had to heal. Instead, I used the two necro curses skills I had equipped to weaken the enemy. I've then played the very same missions with bad groups where I had to spend all my time and energy healing. Guess which situation I prefer?

There are circumstances, many of them, where healing by monks is absolutely necessary to survive a battle. But I am of the opinion that the strategy of tanking an enemy group with the expectation that a monk is two steps away with a constant supply of new hit points is wrong. Of course in many cases it can't be helped: you attack a few foes and you suddenly get swamped, and the only way to survive is through that monk. But to me it seems that this kind of tactic is the norm, i.e. go in and tank and expect to be constantly healed, and then scream at the monk when for whatever reason that just doesn't happen.

RTSFirebat · Nov 07, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

My general dislike is how if your a warrior, elementalist or monk, you never have any trouble getting into parties for anything or UW/FoW.

If you anything else no one wants to know unless there a situation that calls for it, for example Rangers are popular in the Ring of Fire only because they have Winter! Or Mesmers on Tunderhead Keep due to the overkill Monk boss!

Only time me and my ranger go down the FoW is when I go with guildies.

I glad everyday in PvP I prove that Rangers don't suck.. nothing funnier then a Warrior trying to kill me while I use Throw dirt on him/her

Alex The Fat · Nov 07, 2005, 01:21 PM // 13:21

yeah i know the feeling of not being wanted in FoW with my ranger, so i just go to UW with a trapping group and have an equal amount of fun =P and IMO the drops are better (i got 2 ecto's and a gold req. 8 uni'd storm bow)

judge1121 · Nov 07, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

My general dislike is how if your a warrior, elementalist or monk, you never have any trouble getting into parties for anything or UW/FoW.

If you anything else no one wants to know unless there a situation that calls for it, for example Rangers are popular in the Ring of Fire only because they have Winter! Or Mesmers on Tunderhead Keep due to the overkill Monk boss!

Only time me and my ranger go down the FoW is when I go with guildies.

Ya so true, monks especially, but then again some ppl u party with may be dumb and henchies might be better allies

Also y dont u try the solo UW ranger build is pretty cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

I glad everyday in PvP I prove that Rangers don't suck.. nothing funnier then a Warrior trying to kill me while I use Throw dirt on him/her

Rangers are the best characters to my opinion. I usually have to fight ppl over this and i hope i dont have to fight anyone here for it.....

Former Ruling · Nov 07, 2005, 01:35 PM // 13:35

I don't think that there are less Monks playing. I think their are less PvE Monks playing ..Missions..

Go to Augury Rock any dist. and your likely to find half the Dist. full of Monks running in and out farming.

Add that to the fact that most Warriors follow the creed "Hit stuff and let Monk heal me" and you get a good dependency..Most warriors will just quit a mission if the monk leaves or they dont have one..

I don't know how many times I've joined a PUG where the warriors think there should be 1-2 monks PER WARRIOR or they just quit once we enter the mission. Thats just crazy :\ Silly Warriors with no self protection - Trix are for kids.

judge1121 · Nov 07, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

I don't think that there are less Monks playing. I think their are less PvE Monks playing ..Missions..

Go to Augury Rock any dist. and your likely to find half the Dist. full of Monks running in and out farming.

Add that to the fact that most Warriors follow the creed "Hit stuff and let Monk heal me" and you get a good dependency..Most warriors will just quit a mission if the monk leaves or they dont have one..

I don't know how many times I've joined a PUG where the warriors think there should be 1-2 monks PER WARRIOR or they just quit once we enter the mission. Thats just crazy :\ Silly Warriors with no self protection - Trix are for kids.

Yes man totally agree with u. As monk one of the things to do is farm at the end u know and i dont think pve monks are being made because like i hear many ppl dont like to watch the party bar and heal or prot.
Warriors are silly they go all out and start to curse of the monk."why didnt u heal me man sheesh dumb monk".... "well maybe if u are not on the OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP i would heal u"

Gwenhywar · Nov 07, 2005, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiQuId StEeL

They are the one class that most parties cannot go without.

Exactly. There is NO mission/quest that could not be done with the henchie monks + selfheals that ALL other classes have, except FoW, UW, Furnace and titan quests.

The problem lies in the fact that most players can't think outside the cage and want a 2-monk escort for whatever they do.

I have done even Thunderhead and all of the ring of fire missions with a group of people + henchie monks: starting from the desert the henchie monks are better than at least 50% of the real random monks anyway.

Xenrath · Nov 07, 2005, 02:04 PM // 14:04

There are lots and lots of monks. At Augury's Rock or UW solo'ing

Just go look, or have a look at the vid I posted in the Nolani Academy section.

As for the rest of the place in PvE I play a healer as well and probably the main thing that puts off most monks are the ingrates and insulting types who don't understand why one monk can't always keep alive a team of 8 when they all rush forward or the tank decides to go five miles deep into enemy territory and then wonders why he's dying rapidly. Basically: insults etc are quick to come by for monks, praise for saving people's butts much less so. Add in a few more factors like wa/Mo's and (for some reason?) Ele's thinking they can rush everything in existence, it's kind of understandable monks don't want to do that full time.

Slimcea · Nov 07, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

While henchie monks are good, this still doesn't address the point that monks are pretty much essential.

It is entirely possible to run a party without any of the other classes, but you nearly always need a monk or two, even if it is the henchies.

coolsti · Nov 07, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

As for the rest of the place in PvE I play a healer as well and probably the main thing that puts off most monks are the ingrates and insulting types who don't understand why one monk can't always keep alive a team of 8 when they all rush forward or the tank decides to go five miles deep into enemy territory and then wonders why he's dying rapidly.

Exactly! And that is why I am enjoying playing my monk character. I just ignore the insults and play the best I can in the way that I think suits the game best. I won't bust my butt to heal an idiot that rushes or doesn't know when to pull back. (I won't rez someone who insults me). Otherwise I heal the best I can when needed, and try to contribute in other ways besides healing when possible. If someone complains that I don't heal well enough that is ok with me.

burai · Nov 07, 2005, 02:30 PM // 14:30

It is quite funny when people think they are going to be automatically invincible when there's a monk on-board - particularly the warriors who seem to have left their armour off after taking part in one of those pool parties

Warrior: monk, just keep me alive!
2 milliseconds later
Warrior: omg monk - why didn't you heal me!

Senator Tom · Nov 07, 2005, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

My general dislike is how if your a warrior, elementalist or monk, you never have any trouble getting into parties for anything or UW/FoW.

If you anything else no one wants to know unless there a situation that calls for it, for example Rangers are popular in the Ring of Fire only because they have Winter! Or Mesmers on Tunderhead Keep due to the overkill Monk boss!

Only time me and my ranger go down the FoW is when I go with guildies.

I glad everyday in PvP I prove that Rangers don't suck.. nothing funnier then a Warrior trying to kill me while I use Throw dirt on him/her

solution = start your own group

Roza · Nov 07, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

"No point in that, Roza. It's not the profession, it's the role that most people hate to play."

True. But that is why having some other class that is a good but non-dedicated healer may be good. A healing monk needs to go all healing to be most effective. An 'alternative healing class' could be made to have offensive capabilities while still being an energy efficient healer. For example, a druid character that can transform into a good melee tank while still having good a few heals, or a 'shadow-priest' kind of character that can summon a phantom/demon or something while healing on a parr with a monk. This could be achieved if that class had one or two good healing skills in an attribute that is otherwise not all about healing (and does not need help from another attribute like divine for healing monks).

"People will want the established "best" (IE: easiest to use and understand) and be less willing to take the alternative."

True as well, but this will always be a problem. That is why there are still so many War/mo's out there. In PvE, less easy to play or understand and less fashionable classes will always have a hard time finding PuG's. And the same is true for PvP. But if there is a good healing alternative for monks, this class will become popular in 'higher lvl' PvP (and that popularity will trickle down a little to popularity among a greater circle of players, as has happened with mesmers).

2_fingers · Nov 07, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

hmmm... Sometimes when i'm a monk, i ask the the lvl 20 warrior
"Dude is ur armour made of paper?"
Some of the tanks dont even know about knights armour + absorbtion runes. Or even about the -x dmg when enchanted shield.

Monks are neccessary. However, too many monks = less dmg dealt. 2 monks should be more than enuf to hold a 8 man team together. Unless its the dragons lair and the pesky health degen area, most circumstances, 2 monks, that is 1 heal and 1 protect can support a group of 8. The trick is, everyone needs to know what to do.

Which most people dont. When the monk get's hit what do the warriors do? they go hit otherstuff. Brilliant. The idea of protecting the soft but important player is not even thought of. How can the monk heal someone if he's dead?

The moment u have the possiblity of idiots in the team, then u'd need another monk. Have a complete idiot, and probably a monk with infinite energy wont be able to save him.

judge1121 · Nov 07, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

See that is why me and some people think that all players should play a monk.
It teaches how monks act and u will also feel how other monks feel. u also will see how the skills a monks uses are essential and u will learn when they are most vulnerable. playing a monk help my warrior to first not act stupid and not to lead the team in danger. I also learned what i should kill rather than just go out and kill stuff. and my friend said for mesmer it teaches u when to interrupt.

User Name · Nov 07, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slimcea

While henchie monks are good, this still doesn't address the point that monks are pretty much essential.

It is entirely possible to run a party without any of the other classes, but you nearly always need a monk or two, even if it is the henchies.

There's onle 3 reasons you need a monk for every mission:

1. you can't aggro effectively and your AOE damage is only hitting 2-3 enemy NPCs.
2. your warrior thinks he is a damage dealer and thus refused to bring defensive stances.
3. tactics and skill are foreign words to you and anything other than running in casting meteor shower + Firestorm + hacking and slashing is unheard of.